• Take 30 seconds to register your free account to access deals, post topics, and view exclusive content!

    Register Today

    Join the largest Oakley Forum on the web!

[Updated Rule Change] PayPal G&S Recommended

OakleyBoss

Moderator
Staff member
Premium Member
Administrator
4,395
753
USA
Effective 4/21/22 Rule Change: PayPal G&S is now strongly recommended but not required. Per the conversation in this thread, everyone is proceeding at their own risk and can make their own decisions. Would rather give the forum the freedom to choose. As always understand you are proceeding at your own risk, and that forms of payment with no protection are dangerous.

Cheers!

--------------------------
Original Post

This conversation was started in an exchange thread but wanted to open it up to a separate conversation. Have included the comments from that thread. And have included my thoughts below - open to any comments, thoughts or concerns.

My Thoughts:
First, using F&F for transactions is technically against PayPal Terms, though its a gray area. And ultimately members are taking their own risks
But the real issue comes in 2 areas that I've seen time and time again:

1) When the deal happens, people have an "Oh Shoot" moment. They send the funds, and the seller doesn't immediately respond. Maybe they don't respond for 24 hours, maybe 48 hours. You get the idea. The buyer has their "Oh Shoot" moment and begins firing off PM's (usually to myself or the mods), starts a raging flame thread degrading the sellers family and friends, and saying how they've been scammed. And it's understandable - they're worried. They just sent a bunch of money to someone online with absolutely no recourse.

As us mods try to react saying we have no proof of anything (because it's all one persons word against another), and stop the flaming, members accuse us of not wanting to protect them etc.

But here's where it's fun. The Seller didn't scam them. They usually log on after 2-3 hours, days whatever and explain they were sick, on vacation or some other very reasonable reason for someone not being in front of their computer non-stop. They ship out the glasses, and the buyer who went on a tirade has to eat their words.

This has happened more times than I can count in the 10+ years of this site, and I think A LOT of it goes back to the "Oh Shoot" moment when people realize they don't have any protection. Because someone who pays G&S isn't worried, they can get their money back for 30 days, it's no issue.

2) The second side of this is when someone is actually scammed, we have no way of helping people. Like I mentioned above, it's one person's word against another. There is no proof, and that member can't even get their money back because they paid F&F so they are pissed x10 and they blame anyone and everyone. Truthfully, this is a problem either way but needs to be said.

I do know the PayPal tax changes are likely starting some of this conversation but wanted to highlight the points above.

@DaysOfNoah @Atticus

DaysOfNoah said:
To be clear to others, I offered to ship the sunglasses to the buyer. He would only have to pay me F&F after they arrived safely. No money upfront.

@OakleyBoss could we please reconsider. I believe the forum should strongly advise and recommend G&S. But if a seller like me wants to absorb 100% of the risk, why would that be prohibited?

Many other forums on the Internet operate this way with reputation being the standard.

Here is the G & S scenario:
$125 +20% end of year income taxes + $5 s&h = $155

That doesn't make a lot of financial sense for anyone.

I'm selling these for what I bought them (zero profit/gains) but I doubt I can produce paperwork to prove it on my year end taxes.

We've already seen a huge decline in the Oakley Forum exchange, for this reason.
I agree with the FnF. Depending on tax brackets, the income tax rate can be even higher than your scenario above.

I'm curious @OakleyBoss - Have you been seeing a decrease in sale ads on the forum? I know it seems like a lot of "Trade" threads have been opened and I bet a lot of those are to avoid this whole G&S 1099 debacle that is looming...

I know I plan on only offering face to face cash deals when I put up any ads here in the future. Items may sit forever, but that's better than paying income taxes on a hobby in which I actually lose money by the time you add in shipping fees and whatnot.

Thank the "American Rescue Plan" for this one. Somehow, that meant getting more taxes out of people in the middle class. (My theory is that "Higher Income" people generally know how to work the tax system and won't pay income tax on sales like this and "Lower Income" folks probably aren't selling anything over $600.)

And, who is the buyer? You are a well established member. Are they?
 

Shade Station Oakley Sunglasses
Register to Not see this ad
Last edited:

Atticus

1-2-5
Premium Member
Lifetime Member
22,351
2,973
Central PA
This conversation was started in an exchange thread but wanted to open it up to a separate conversation. Have included the comments from that thread. And have included my thoughts below - open to any comments, thoughts or concerns.

My Thoughts:
First, using F&F for transactions is technically against PayPal Terms, though its a gray area. And ultimately members are taking their own risks
But the real issue comes in 2 areas that I've seen time and time again:

1) When the deal happens, people have an "Oh Shoot" moment. They send the funds, and the seller doesn't immediately respond. Maybe they don't respond for 24 hours, maybe 48 hours. You get the idea. The buyer has their "Oh Shoot" moment and begins firing off PM's (usually to myself or the mods), starts a raging flame thread degrading the sellers family and friends, and saying how they've been scammed. And it's understandable - they're worried. They just sent a bunch of money to someone online with absolutely no recourse.

As us mods try to react saying we have no proof of anything (because it's all one persons word against another), and stop the flaming, members accuse us of not wanting to protect them etc.

But here's where it's fun. The Seller didn't scam them. They usually log on after 2-3 hours, days whatever and explain they were sick, on vacation or some other very reasonable reason for someone not being in front of their computer non-stop. They ship out the glasses, and the buyer who went on a tirade has to eat their words.

This has happened more times than I can count in the 10+ years of this site, and I think A LOT of it goes back to the "Oh Shoot" moment when people realize they don't have any protection. Because someone who pays G&S isn't worried, they can get their money back for 30 days, it's no issue.

2) The second side of this is when someone is actually scammed, we have no way of helping people. Like I mentioned above, it's one person's word against another. There is no proof, and that member can't even get their money back because they paid F&F so they are pissed x10 and they blame anyone and everyone. Truthfully, this is a problem either way but needs to be said.

I do know the PayPal tax changes are likely starting some of this conversation but wanted to highlight the points above.

@DaysOfNoah @Atticus

The tax laws are the conversation. If the dollar amount and sale counts hadn’t changed in order to get a 1099, I don’t feel this would even be a discussion.

But, unless people have kept immaculate records on their past purchases, I think almost every seller on this forum is currently or will be come next tax season, impacted by this policy change. Casual sellers will most likely stop selling once they realize the impact, whether it’s now or after Jan 31st 2023…

All I know is other websites allow wires, FF, bank checks, etc… and seem to make it work.
 

OakleyBoss

Moderator
Staff member
Premium Member
Administrator
4,395
753
USA
The tax laws are the conversation. If the dollar amount and sale counts hadn’t changed in order to get a 1099, I don’t feel this would even be a discussion.

But, unless people have kept immaculate records on their past purchases, I think almost every seller on this forum is currently or will be come next tax season, impacted by this policy change. Casual sellers will most likely stop selling once they realize the impact, whether it’s now or after Jan 31st 2023…

All I know is other websites allow wires, FF, bank checks, etc… and seem to make it work.

Yeah definitely get that, basically wondering if it's time to open it up and let everyone decide what they use for payment.
 

TNGoldbeard

Far Right
Premium Member
Lifetime Member
4,031
723
The High Seas
I’ve been offering F&F as a buyer without being asked as part of the offer. It’s all I’ve used for years on other forums and so far without issue but I’m very selective. Otherwise I’m not making the deal because of the new laws. But I’m also a longtime veteran to it so I don’t really get nervous unless I’m ghosted for a week or more. When I sell I ship immediately. I could go into it a lot more but that’s the basics.
 

Last edited:

Lopaka KaMars

Oakley Non-Expert
Premium Member
Lifetime Member
9,683
1,973
Kaneohe Hawaii
Because I've been on both ends, I've been leaning towards F&F, and have been paying that way, but with some conditions. How much things cost, and who I'm buying it from. Something that's only around a hundred dollars, or less, I'm willing to take that chance. It's not Romeo money. At the same time, I've sold things and haven't asked for F&F. Some people will just pay me F&F, and most won't. And I won't complain. But that's me and my comfort level.
 

Atticus

1-2-5
Premium Member
Lifetime Member
22,351
2,973
Central PA
i use F&F with certain members on her. You can’t always make that decision by someone’s feedback rating. YFG proved that a few years ago.
YFG was a bad situation for sure.
Its a shame that he is still having an impact on this forum.

If things stay as they are, I suspect this forum will be pretty much gone within a couple of years as sellers move to other platforms, as @Walter Langkowski feelings on this forum are probably becoming more widespread with other members.
 

Top